When do you move your company from your home to an office?

[Deleted User] · April 2012

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AragornSG · April 2012

I have a dedicated "work room" in my apartment, don't need a specific "office". Everyone that works for me and with me is remote, also working from home, so again, no need for the office. It's harder in terms of keeping productivity high, but cost benefits are gigantic.

mistergreen2011 · April 2012

When you have the money and you need the space for face to face meetings, and employees.

rocotilos · April 2012

I'm with Aragorn son of Arathorn here. I mean, the best thing of doing indie is so that you could do work at the comfort of your own home. Not sure why one would want to go back to the "office space" (watch Office Space movie and you'll see why). Also, if you make more money, that's even the better reason for you to continue work at home - just eat all of the profits for yourself and your family.

But then, of course, if you have VERY high goal (like, you'd want to be the next Steve Jobs or you want to be the next Zynga).. then, you should start right away. Take up loans if you have to, to start up office and hire people.

ziocleto · April 2012

WheyLabs;424613 said:
I was pondering an interesting question yesterday. When is it the right time to move out of you home, and into an office?

We actually have an office in central London, but I rarely go there. I do enjoy working around London so I normally go to a starbucks or "caffe nero" or anywhere with a good wi-fi with my laptop. That's the "Apple" side of the story...

The android app of the story is different, the system is open and we have contacts with _a lot_ of companies, especially in US, so good meeting rooms are needed, but I rarely "work" in the office, too boring. If I'm not in some meeting I just catch up with the guys.

So I'd say unless you have needs for meetings you'd better off waiting until you have somewhere around 1/10 of you profits as your office rent. Otherwise it's just wasting money IMO.

If you are the "manager" type that likes having employees and feeling upbeat about being a boss, then go for it anyway, mood is important ;)

Paul Slocum · April 2012

I liked working at home at first, but I'm really ready to get an office. I have a lot of friends who worked at home for a while, but now have a studio/office and they say it makes a big difference in productivity and sanity. ;) I definitely can't afford an office in New York yet, but I may be looking into sharing one or something soon.

[Deleted User] · April 2012

Some very interesting replies, thank you all!

AragornSG, rocotilos -- Would you guys consider eventually moving into an office though. Don't you feel the need to separate your home space from work, and further more don't you see yourselves expanding your development by hiring more employees, or are you content with your current levels of production?

I understand that you can remotely hire employees, however having them in your own office is definitely more beneficial (as you mentioned earlier AragornSG), and allows you to work with the employee more closely, as they are with you for several hours a day and you can monitor their progress.

I think, for me it would definitely be exciting and motivating to move into an office eventually, although I guess that's more because I can't code/design myself, whereas most of you seem to be very talented in that area!

Thanks again for the replies.

Good luck to all!

JasonR · April 2012

If your city has them, I would consider membership in a co-working space first. Typically, you won't get a dedicated office, but it's a cheap way to find out if working outside the home helps your productivity.

I also find having people to go to lunch with broadens my horizons and helps get the creative juices flowing.

PlutoPrime · April 2012

Depends what your goals are. If you're building a company, you need to grow at some point. If you need more productivity or feel the need for an escape to be productive and focus then an office may be the solution.

We started from 1 room to an entire suite now. Fridge, drinks, conference room, kitchen, etc. We be ballin.

AragornSG · April 2012

I worked in the office for many years, I worked from home for many years (still for the corp) and now I'm working from home for myself. Since I have two little kids (under 2 years), I wouldn't trade that for the office, regardless of the advantages of the office.

And I completely agree with Rocotilos (impressive LOTR knowledge btw ;) ), if your aim is to CREATE a large corporation, you have to scale up quickly. Managing rapidly increasing number of remote employees will become a problem, so office would be a good idea. If you're planning to take it slow and risk free, like myself (no loans, spend only what you earn), then renting an office is a big mistake. It's a huge, fixed cost, which gives you very little in return. If you're serious about making a good, profitable business, you have to keep your OPEX as low as you can, calculate if money spent is worth it. Look at the money it will cost you maintaining the office monthly and then think long and hard whether the benefit of looking your employees over the shoulder is worth it.

As for expanding, I don't intend to follow a classic scheme of building a company. People I work with are either freelancers, which have task orientated fees OR partners, who have in their own best interest doing the job they are supposed to be doing. That way, you don't have to micro manage your people, true, you still have to keep your finger on the pulse, but everyone involved has to motivate themselves, knowing that no effort equals no money. It's much more difficult to find the RIGHT people for this kind of relationship, but it makes your job SO much easier in the end.

RickSDK · April 2012

I think less than .1% of all app developers will ever have to worry about getting office space.

I would say you can't even start thinking about having an office until your apps are making $6000+/month and have at least 3 employees working full time. Anything short of that is hard to justify the added expense.

[Deleted User] · April 2012

Great answer, thanks!

I can definitely see the appeal when you have kids too, but I still imagine you'd like some 'free time' away from the house and kids?

I think even with slow development, rather than rapid development, it is beneficial to invest in an office. I believe that if you create a professional atmosphere, and work in a professional environment, you are more likely to become professional and succeed. Also, overheads for rent aren't too dear, at just £120/m for shared office space here, and one can't put a price on the increased efficiency that comes with that (of course, it depends on self motivation, you might work just as slowly in an office). Personally, I believe that it all comes down to self preference, for example, someone who cannot work efficiently at home or someone who has a higher morale at work.

I wouldn't consider it until I'm netting XXXX amount monthly though (One can only hope!), as I don't think it's really a necessity until I will be employing staff.

AragornSG;424689 said:
I worked in the office for many years, I worked from home for many years (still for the corp) and now I'm working from home for myself. Since I have two little kids (under 2 years), I wouldn't trade that for the office, regardless of the advantages of the office.

And I completely agree with Rocotilos (impressive LOTR knowledge btw ;) ), if your aim is to CREATE a large corporation, you have to scale up quickly. Managing rapidly increasing number of remote employees will become a problem, so office would be a good idea. If you're planning to take it slow and risk free, like myself (no loans, spend only what you earn), then renting an office is a big mistake. It's a huge, fixed cost, which gives you very little in return. If you're serious about making a good, profitable business, you have to keep your OPEX as low as you can, calculate if money spent is worth it. Look at the money it will cost you maintaining the office monthly and then think long and hard whether the benefit of looking your employees over the shoulder is worth it.

As for expanding, I don't intend to follow a classic scheme of building a company. People I work with are either freelancers, which have task orientated fees OR partners, who have in their own best interest doing the job they are supposed to be doing. That way, you don't have to micro manage your people, true, you still have to keep your finger on the pulse, but everyone involved has to motivate themselves, knowing that no effort equals no money. It's much more difficult to find the RIGHT people for this kind of relationship, but it makes your job SO much easier in the end.

chrishannah · April 2012

I think I like the idea of having an office, but when it came down to it i'd stay at home to save money.

mistergreen2011 · April 2012

If I had won that mega million lotto, I'd totally open an office.

Paul Slocum · April 2012

RickSDK;424692 said:
I would say you can't even start thinking about having an office until your apps are making $6000+/month

6000? We must not be thinking of the same kind of office. ;)

I don't need much more than a window and a desk. My friends here in New York tend to do things like rent spaces in artist studios and put in desks and a coffee maker. Even here it's possible to find a space to split with someone and only be paying $400-$500 each, maybe even less. If I were still in Texas, I'd rent a nice artist studio for about $200 a month.

RickSDK · April 2012

Paul Slocum;424714 said:
6000? We must not be thinking of the same kind of office.

while it sounds like a great idea, there's probably only 2 types of developers who are considering getting an office. The guy who created a mega-app that just went viral making tons of money, and the dreamers who haven't yet created their first app.

for everyone else in the middle, they know how hard it is to just making a few dollars and the idea of adding on additional $500, $1000, or $2000/mo overhead would not be a good business decision.

[Deleted User] · April 2012

I have to disagree, I know of several developers I have met who work in offices, and don't have 'mega' apps, but have created apps. They are all earning quite well, and none of their apps strike me as brilliant, but through promotion etc they have kept them earning respectably, not brilliantly, but respectably.

Also you can easily find rent cheaply, and £120/month isn't a huge impact on revenue!

So while I realise you need to be making X amount per month, i'm not sure $6k is the target! :)

RickSDK;424721 said:
while it sounds like a great idea, there's probably only 2 types of developers who are considering getting an office. The guy who created a mega-app that just went viral making tons of money, and the dreamers who haven't yet created their first app.

for everyone else in the middle, they know how hard it is to just making a few dollars and the idea of adding on additional $500, $1000, or $2000/mo overhead would not be a good business decision.

dre · April 2012

mistergreen2011;424713 said:
If I had won that mega million lotto, I'd totally open an office.

If I had won that mega million lotto, I'd CLOSE the office :)

Paul Slocum · April 2012

RickSDK;424721 said:
while it sounds like a great idea, there's probably only 2 types of developers who are considering getting an office. The guy who created a mega-app that just went viral making tons of money, and the dreamers who haven't yet created their first app.

Between my apps and freelance, I'm basically just making 'normal' money for a programmer with my experience. But since I have more good freelance offers than I can keep up with, it seems like spending a little on an office would be reasonable if it really does improve productivity and efficiency.

mistergreen2011 · April 2012

dre;424732 said:
If I had won that mega million lotto, I'd CLOSE the office :)

I'd still work if I had that money. Probably more vacations though.

TunaNugget · April 2012

WheyLabs;424704 said:
Great answer, thanks!

I can definitely see the appeal when you have kids too, but I still imagine you'd like some 'free time' away from the house and kids?

I have a sailboat.

bignoggins · April 2012

WheyLabs;424613 said:
Unfortunately, I have no coding/designing experience, and just outsource production of everything, so I know that eventually - If I manage to make a respectable wage from my apps - I will need to move into an office, and take on some more permanent staff.

I'm not sure I would agree. I make a fairly respectable wage (many multiples my previous silicon valley s/w dev salary) and I work from home with no permanent staff and it's fine.

You'd be surprised how far you can get just by working in your PJs and outsourcing. Gotta love globalization and technology =)

I see what you're saying about trying to create a professional environment, but most developers like to work remotely anyway. I actually think you'd get better developers if they were able to work fully remote. If I was looking for a job, remote work would be at the top of my list.

[Deleted User] · April 2012

Ah, I didn't mean everyone needs to, but I meant that for me personally it would be beneficial, because I would be able to keep tabs on employees, see increased efficiency etc which would most likely be worth the monthly rent, because it becomes far easier than having remote staff (for me personally) and having to wait for updates without knowing if they are working productively.

But yeah, I also agree that you can just work in your PJs :P. As I said before, it's all personal preference, and you hit it bang on the nail, most developers probably do prefer working in the comfort of their own home, but i'm completely the opposite for some reason!

bignoggins;424760 said:
I'm not sure I would agree. I make a fairly respectable wage (many multiples my previous silicon valley s/w dev salary) and I work from home with no permanent staff and it's fine.

You'd be surprised how far you can get just by working in your PJs and outsourcing. Gotta love globalization and technology =)

I see what you're saying about trying to create a professional environment, but most developers like to work remotely anyway. I actually think you'd get better developers if they were able to work fully remote. If I was looking for a job, remote work would be at the top of my list.

bignoggins · April 2012

WheyLabs;424765 said:
Ah, I didn't mean everyone needs to, but I meant that for me personally it would be beneficial, because I would be able to keep tabs on employees, see increased efficiency etc which would most likely be worth the monthly rent, because it becomes far easier than having remote staff (for me personally) and having to wait for updates without knowing if they are working productively.

But yeah, I also agree that you can just work in your PJs :P. As I said before, it's all personal preference, and you hit it bang on the nail, most developers probably do prefer working in the comfort of their own home, but i'm completely the opposite for some reason!

well if your employees require you to look over their shoulder in order to be productive then you hired bad employees.

To be blunt, if you don't actually contribute to the development of the product other than as a "manager", what does your productivity matter?

Ultimately it's up to you if you want an office. If it makes you happy, then go for it. But based on what you've said, I don't think it's necessarily a good business decision. There are tons of good app companies that work 100% remotely.

[Deleted User] · April 2012

To work efficiently I believe that employees are always far more responsive when they are under more of a watch. That doesn't mean looking over their shoulder. I realised this with one of my earlier startups a few years ago.

Freelance employees just don't work anywhere near as efficiently. You can argue that they have the incentive of payment, but this means they will work towards the payment, and NOT above it. I.e, if I have an employee working closely with me in real-time, in an office, they will have no choice but to put in the hours of work, whereas a freelance company or employee will just do the necessary work.

It is my personal opinion that in the long-run to maintain a professional representation and induce expansion and growth at a faster and more efficient level, one must eventually move into an office and take on staff - in any employment. I'm not talking about a shipload of staff, I just mean 1 or possibly 2, and then expand from there. Sure you can always have remote employees, but from a business perspective, I personally don't believe that would be anywhere near the production level of an on-site employee, working with you. And therefore this result is a worthwhile investment into an office.

Of course, this is dependant upon whether or not one can make any money in the first place...:D.

You mentioned my productivity - this is mostly about the productivity of employees, however by being in an office environment I would be incentivised to work as my employees are working, rather than mixing work and home life which can be very distracting. I didn't say that I didn't contribute though. Just in the coding/designing side of things. That is why it is more necessary for me to hire employees, as I take no satisfaction from doing either of these two duties.

Thanks again for the reply, it's very interesting to see the perspective of others!

bignoggins;424781 said:
well if your employees require you to look over their shoulder in order to be productive then you hired bad employees.

To be blunt, if you don't actually contribute to the development of the product other than as a "manager", what does your productivity matter?

Ultimately it's up to you if you want an office. If it makes you happy, then go for it. But based on what you've said, I don't think it's necessarily a good business decision. There are tons of good app companies that work 100% remotely.

AragornSG · April 2012

WheyLabs;424783 said:
You can argue that they have the incentive of payment, but this means they will work towards the payment, and NOT above it. I.e, if I have an employee working closely with me in real-time, in an office, they will have no choice but to put in the hours of work, whereas a freelance company or employee will just do the necessary work.

That's what Big said about hiring the right people. Freelancers who are passionate about their work and produce stunning quality are rare breed. Took me months of looking on Elance and Freelancer to find one good designer and one good illustrator, but when I did, I *know* I don't have to check in on them. They will deliver the highest quality, because they love what they do (as opposed to it just being their job) and they are damn good at it.

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