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NIGHTMARE... Outsourcing for cheap iPhone development
For the last 7 months we've been developing a social word and number game, called 'What it Takes', using developers based in India.
I'm not going to lie, the experience has been pretty horrendous.
However, despite the less than smooth experience (we've had to be extremely resourceful), we're only about a month away from releasing into the AppStore (we're fairly certain that any disgraceful workmanship has been improved / fixed / removed).
Anyway, the complexity of the game is similar to 'Words With Friends' or 'Scramble With Friends', and despite giving the development company an extremely detailed requirements document before agreeing contractual terms, they have consistently been unable to deliver, and as a result, the project is over 4 months late.
We're also releasing the game early without 4 milestones worth of functionality(!) so realistically, the project is actually about a year behind.
Have any of you guys had experiences (good or bad) with outsourcing for cheap devs? I'm interested to hear your opinions and experiences.
Similarly, if there is anyone thinking about outsourcing for cheap devs, i'd be happy to impart some of my wisdom gained by dealing with these morons for 7 months, who certainly don't have What it Takes.
We've heard many of these stories before from previous clients. Often, if they're outsourcing for a VERY low budget, they'll probably have to expect poor understanding, communication and a poor quality of work.
I guess the ol'saying, 'you get what you pay for' comes to mind.
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A friend of mine was also developing an app with Indian programmers a while back. All contact went through e-mail or phone. He says it didn't work at all, so they had the same experience.
More specifically, they would ask if the programmers understood what needed to be done and the "Indian side" would always say "yes yes" to any questions (never a good sign..). For example, questions like "did you understand it?" or "will you make the deadline?". But when push came to shove it became clear they didn't understand it or that they couldn't make it. Like you, they also ended up with a crappy app with only half the specified functionality.
He though it was probably due to a culture gap (Western-Europe vs India). I mean he suspected that the guys in India viewed them as "higher caste" or something like that, and therefor they didn't want to say "no" to anything or were too embarrassed to ask difficult questions.
Since I only do iOS programming, I outsourced the Android version to a company in India. They had a project manager here that was the go between. They were about 2 months late with delivering and updates to fix one item usually took 2-3 iterations. We were not on a specific deadline, so the missed deadline was not a real issue. I just wanted a working product. I made sure to keep to a fixed scope and thus the project cost was fixed as well. I did not pay for their overages of time.
There is both a communication and time gap when working with companies from India which is difficult to work though.
We paid %20 of the project cost at the beginning of the project and then the remainder after the final build and code were delivered and accepted. I could see how dealing directly with the programmers could have been really tough. I think I was lucking having a resource here to work with who was committed to my satisfaction.
I actually decided to outsource to some eastern european developers as I had heard all the stories about Indian developers. My experience wasn't the best of experiences as the app i developed with them was supposed to take 3 months to complete and after 7 months, it's still only about 70 - 80% done.
I actually think a big problem is managing the difference in time zones. It's already bad enough to have to handle the language barrier but to spend most of your communications through email is a pain in the ass. I made it a point to have at least a Skype session a week.
That said, I think I'm fairly lucky compared to some other guys i've spoken to...I've heard horror stories of some indian developers that just took off after completing a quarter of the job and just never came back.
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Hear, hear. Thanks for your comments. I agree with almost everything that has been posted above, apart from the 'Like you, they also ended up with a crappy app' comment :). It was crap, but after spending a few weeks on touching up and removing the code it's looking pretty sweet - The project is finished and we're just awaiting approval from the App Store.
The project has cost us around $13,000 in total (including graphics, development, sounds, video), which is incredible really, considering the complexity of the project.
My game was developed by a Romanian firm. My experience was really good to the most part, although the project was finished in 4 months, instead of 2 (but their original estimations were really too optimistic). There were (and still are) some problems regarding quality and sticking to timeframes, but since I'm very 'hands-on' with the project, I don't let them get away with any bug or discrepancy.
I can give you three major tips: 1. shop around carefully before you choose your off-shore solution. Check their portfolio vigorously to see their skills stands to your standard and needs. To see they 'Have what it takes' :) 2. Make sure communication is great. That they respond in a timely manner, their English is good. 3. That your spec document is absolutely fool-proof, all is understood, and you haven't missed any tiny aspect of the product. Because if you do - it will cost you more money, time and aggravation.
Another problem that arises is that once the project is done, you need them to be there for you to update it, add features etc. So you must 'close' those details too in the agreement. Sorrily I find that now, once my app is already developed, every little thing I ask they give me exaggerated time estimations and quotes... why? Because in a way I'm captive in their hands, and they know it. That's another big minus regarding off-shore development.
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Wow guys really eye opening. Can I ask what sort of rates per week/month are these guys you consider CHEAP asking? Here is Australia I have hired a competent ios developer at market rates $100/hr and experts at $165/hr. $13k for 7 months sounds wayyyyy too little... So I'm sorry you had those experiences but they must have been good learning. I've spent 10+ years in the IT industry and seen several multi million dollar projects fail that I've in some way been involved in. So it's not just pay money and it all works. Finding the right people is the key and yes good communication is two way, not just yes yes yes and no delivery. For all my subcontractors I make sure they deliver something to me every second day. Being a project manager taught me there is also a fine line between micro management, control and its effect on productivity.
I've spent the last 4 months developing my skills in iOS (made 4 games and a language app) and next year will probably begin contract work, so if anyone wants to do something on time and on budget drop me a PM.
Can I ask did any of your projects involve 3D or art that required specialist skills?
WhatItTakesGame
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I guess the ol'saying, 'you get what you pay for' comes to mind.
We will endlessly help every developer to succeed by advertising them on Twitter and Facebook pages, our blog, to our friends and contacts and we will be giving away free advertising space for iOS and Android applications!
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0 • Off Topic Insightful Disagree Dislike Like AwesomeMore specifically, they would ask if the programmers understood what needed to be done and the "Indian side" would always say "yes yes" to any questions (never a good sign..). For example, questions like "did you understand it?" or "will you make the deadline?". But when push came to shove it became clear they didn't understand it or that they couldn't make it. Like you, they also ended up with a crappy app with only half the specified functionality.
He though it was probably due to a culture gap (Western-Europe vs India). I mean he suspected that the guys in India viewed them as "higher caste" or something like that, and therefor they didn't want to say "no" to anything or were too embarrassed to ask difficult questions.
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0 • Off Topic Insightful Disagree Dislike Like AwesomeThere is both a communication and time gap when working with companies from India which is difficult to work though.
We paid %20 of the project cost at the beginning of the project and then the remainder after the final build and code were delivered and accepted. I could see how dealing directly with the programmers could have been really tough. I think I was lucking having a resource here to work with who was committed to my satisfaction.
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0 • Off Topic Insightful Disagree Dislike Like AwesomeMy experience wasn't the best of experiences as the app i developed with them was supposed to take 3 months to complete and after 7 months, it's still only about 70 - 80% done.
I actually think a big problem is managing the difference in time zones. It's already bad enough to have to handle the language barrier but to spend most of your communications through email is a pain in the ass. I made it a point to have at least a Skype session a week.
That said, I think I'm fairly lucky compared to some other guys i've spoken to...I've heard horror stories of some indian developers that just took off after completing a quarter of the job and just never came back.
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0 • Off Topic Insightful Disagree Dislike Like AwesomeThe project has cost us around $13,000 in total (including graphics, development, sounds, video), which is incredible really, considering the complexity of the project.
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0 • Off Topic Insightful Disagree Dislike Like Awesome- Spam
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0 • Off Topic Insightful Disagree Dislike Like AwesomeI can give you three major tips:
1. shop around carefully before you choose your off-shore solution. Check their portfolio vigorously to see their skills stands to your standard and needs. To see they 'Have what it takes' :)
2. Make sure communication is great. That they respond in a timely manner, their English is good.
3. That your spec document is absolutely fool-proof, all is understood, and you haven't missed any tiny aspect of the product. Because if you do - it will cost you more money, time and aggravation.
Another problem that arises is that once the project is done, you need them to be there for you to update it, add features etc. So you must 'close' those details too in the agreement. Sorrily I find that now, once my app is already developed, every little thing I ask they give me exaggerated time estimations and quotes... why? Because in a way I'm captive in their hands, and they know it. That's another big minus regarding off-shore development.
Slide your way Mexico Style. Download 'Find a Way, José' now, and flex them neurons like a real Muchacho! (for iPhone & iPad)
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0 • Off Topic Insightful Disagree Dislike Like AwesomeI've spent the last 4 months developing my skills in iOS (made 4 games and a language app) and next year will probably begin contract work, so if anyone wants to do something on time and on budget drop me a PM.
Can I ask did any of your projects involve 3D or art that required specialist skills?
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0 • Off Topic Insightful Disagree Dislike Like Awesome